Monday, October 25, 2010
Book 17
Book 17 is all about Odysseus returning to his home (as a beggar) and testing the suitors. Homer adds the part where Telemachus is telling Piraeus to keep Telemachus' gifts hidden. This is an example of being an extrovert and thinking of others. Why would Homer do this? What does Theoclymenus' prophecy and Penelope's response show about Penelope's true feelings? Why? Why do you think Odysseus decides to act stoically towards the rude actions of Melanthius? What does the sad encounter of the old dog, Argos, truly show? What is the irony of Antinous' argument?
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Selim, these are great discussion points. I love that you used a vocabulary word, but I have one small edit! The sentence should read, "Why do you think Odysseus decides to act stoically....", with stoic in its adverb form.
ReplyDeleteThank you!
Homer probably did this because he wanted to emphasize the aspect, or idea, of non selfishness, or how Selim had put it, "thinking of others". Theoclymenus' prophecy, and Penelope's response show that Penelope is a very patient woman, and feels like she is in a very difficult situation to come out of. Also, she is longing for her loving hero of a husband to come back, and save her and the estate from the suitors with bad intentions. She probably feels these things because she is a patient, and responsible woman, who thinks deeply, and thoroughly, before she makes a decision, or acts upon something. I think that Odysseus acts stoically towards the rude actions of Melanthius, to show, portray, or express the fact that Odysseus is "the better man", and also very understanding of how bad situations will turn out. Also, this shows that Odysseus normally acts and thinks in a very practical way, which is considered a great quality, in many various ways. The sad encounter that Odysseus had with the old dog Argos, showed, or helped Odysseus himself realize, that he had been gone for quite some time. The irony of Antinous' is argument is that he thinks that he is right about what he is arguing about, when he actually is just trying to use trickery and lies against Odysseus.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Zully on how he said that Homer put put this in the story to show the reader that Telemachus was not selfish. I think that that penelope's response to the prophecy shows that Penelope has been longing for Odysseus to come home, but for someone to tell her that her husband is here just seems so unlikely, after hes been gone for so many years. Odysseus acts stoically towards the rude comments because he knows that he could easily over power Melenthius but he doesnt want to because he is a much better man than that, but if he has to he will. it also shows that odysseus isnt quick to reactions but tries to work things out. The sad encounter Odysseus has with Argos shows that Odysseus has truly been gone for a very long time, like zully said. The irony of Antinous' argument is that he is in fact the one who will not leave this house without a scare once Odysseus reveals himself and fights the suitors.
ReplyDeleteHomer portrays Telemachus like this to show that he cares for others over himself. Penelope longs that what Theoclymenus says is true, but she truly believes that it is impossible that her husband could actually be home. Odysseus decides to act the way he does with Melenthius because he knows that he is more powerful then him, and also he doesn't want to draw too much attention to himself. The encounter with Argos just shows how long Odysseus has been gone, and how yet another being was waiting loyally for their master to returns. The irony of Antinous's words is that Antinous was acting like the king of Ithaca, and he was speaking to the actual king. He told Odysseus that he wouldn't get out unscarred, when he was the one who would probably never even leave the place alive.
ReplyDeleteHomer adds this part because people mainly think of Odysseus as selfish and this shows that he cares about others as well. Penelope response shows us that she just can't believe that he could actually be back after all of these years, but she really does love him. I think Odysseus acts stoically toward a Melanthius because he knows that he is better than him, but he was raging inside. The encounter with Argos shows that even after all this time, their bond couldn't be broken because Argos remembered him. The irony of Antinous' argument was that he told Odysseus that he wouldn't come out of the castle unscathed, when it's is going to be Antinous that is going to die.
ReplyDeleteHomer adds the bit about Telemachus telling Piraeus to hide his presents in order to show he is selfless. Theoclymenus' prophecy shows that Penelope is very stoical, because she cannot be swayed to believe that Odysseus will ever come home. Odysseus chooses to act stoically towards the actions of Melanthus in order to keep his identity concealed. Odysseus' encounter with Argos goes to show how long he has been gone, and that his people still love him. What Antinous says to Odysseus is ironic because he thinks of himself as a king talking to a beggar, and he is the one to die in the end.
ReplyDeleteTelemachus is probably portrayed this way to show that he is not self-centered and is capable of putting others before himself. This also shows that he is become more of a leader and someone who could be respected and trusted to lead his people. When Penelope hears news that Odysseus is going to return she doesn't immediately believe. I think that this is in some ways very simular to Odysseus reaction when he first arrives on Ithaca. It probably seems a little too good to be true; therefore, they choose to think that it simple can't be true. Odysseus shows great restraint when he does not attack or get outwardly mad at Melanthius. Although he was furious inside, he bit his tounge. The irony in Melanthius' words to Odysseus was that Melanthius was talking as though he was superior to Odysseus and almost as if he were as great as a kind, when really Odysseus is the true leader.
ReplyDelete(oops forgot a part) His encounter with the old dog was sad because it made him realize everything that he had left behind and how long he really had been gone. Not only that but this poor dog has been mistreated. It must make him realize how badly Ithaca is in need of a good ruler.
ReplyDeleteI think Homer adds the bit of Telemachus because it shows that he is not selfish. In Theoclymenus prophecy it says that Odysseus will return home soon, and Penelope doesn't believe it. I think she does this because she doesn't want to give her hopes up. And she believes that Odysseus will not come home. Odysseus acts stoically towards Melanthius because he doesn't want his identity to be reveled. The encounter with the dog was sad for Odysseus because Odysseus realizes how long he has been gone and what a lack of a leader that Ithaca had. It makes him realize that Ithacha has not seen a good ruler since he left.
ReplyDeletetelemachus tells piraeus to his the gifts so the suitors do not stealthem or see them. He is being an extrovert by caring about others in the way of not wanting to show off his gifts. Homer does this to show telemachus's wiseness and how he is maturing and showing how telemachus is thoughtful and nice. Theoclymenus' prophecy says that odysseus is returning and Penelope's response is that she really misses and him and will die with out him. Odysseus decides to act stoically towards the rude actions of Melanthius becasue he cannot show his true form and he must act as a beggar and he knows that he will soon get back at him when he takes revenge on the suitors the sad encounter of the old dog, Argos, shows how long its been and all thats chganged since odysseus was gone and how things had gone downhill. it also showed how much the people in ithaca needed him and hoiw much they missed him, the dog finally seeing his master was able to rest in peace. the irony of Antinous' argument is that he is saying he is a baggar but he is really the amn who is feeding him and the other suitors. Also he says that odysseus should be happy with what he's getting and to back off of his food but its not his food at all, its odysseus's he's taking food so he has no right to keep it from the beggar.
ReplyDeleteI am a little confused about the question, but I will answer as best as possible. I think that Homer would do this to show Telemachus' worry about the suitors, and their plot of his death. Also, I think Homer does this to demonstrate Telemachus' desire to take over the suitors and regain his father's throne. Theoclymenus' prophecy and Penelope's response shows that Penelope is reluctant to believe that her husband Odysseus has safely made it home, and that she is not very optimistic. Also, Penelope's response to the prophecy shows us that Penelope misses Odysseus a ton, and that she loves him a ton. I think that Odysseus decides to act stoical towards the rude action of Melanthius because he knows that he will soon regain his throne and have full power over him. The sad encounter of the old dog shows how great Odysseus treated the dog, and how poorly the dog was treated with the absence of Odysseus. Also, the encounter represents how things have changed when Odysseus had left, and how unstable and sad things were. I think the dog also represents Penelope because she also changed greatly when Odysseus left. I don't really know the irony of Antinous' argument.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, Julia, when you talk about the irony of Antinous' argument. Now I understand the irony of the situation.
ReplyDeleteTelemachus tells Piraeus to hid his gifts so the suitors do not steal them or see them. He is being an extrovert by caring about others in the way of not wanting to show off his gifts. Homer does this to show Telemachus's wiseness and how he is maturing and showing how Telemachus is thoughtful and nice. Theoclymenus' prophecy says that Odysseus is returning and Penelope's response is that she really misses and him and will die with out him. Odysseus decides to act stoically towards the rude actions of Melanthius because he cannot show his true form and he must act as a beggar, he knows that he will soon get back at him when he takes revenge on the suitors. The sad encounter of the old dog, Argos, shows how long its been, all thats changed since Odysseus was gone, and how things had gone downhill. It also showed how much the people in Ithaca needed him and how much they missed him, the dog finally seeing his master was able to rest in peace. the irony of Antinous' argument is that he is saying he is a baggar but he is really the man who is feeding him and the other suitors. Also he says that Odysseus should be happy with what he's getting and to back off of his food but it's not his food at all, its Odysseus's, he's taking food himself so he has no right to keep it from the beggar.
ReplyDeleteTelemachus tells Piraeus to hid his gifts so the suitors do not steal them or see them. He is being an extrovert by caring about others in the way of not wanting to show off his gifts. Homer does this to show Telemachus's wiseness and how he is maturing and showing how Telemachus is thoughtful and nice. Theoclymenus' prophecy says that Odysseus is returning and Penelope's response is that she really misses and him and will soon die with out him. Odysseus decides to act stoically towards the rude actions of Melanthius because he cannot show his true form and he must act as a beggar, he knows that he will soon get back at him when he takes revenge on the suitors. The sad encounter of the old dog, Argos, shows how long its been, all thats changed since Odysseus was gone, and how things had gone downhill. It also showed how much the people in Ithaca needed him and how much they missed him. The dog finally seeing his master was able to rest in peace. The irony of Antinous' argument is the fact that he is saying Odysseus is a beggar but he is really the man who is providing for Antinous and all the other suitors. Also he says that Odysseus should be happy with what he's getting and to back off of his food but it's not his food at all, its Odysseus's, he's taking food himself so he has no right to keep it from the beggar.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Zully and Thomas in that Homer wanted to emphasize the idea of unselfishness, and to also demonstrate Telemachus' anger towards the suitors, which makes him want to overthrow them. This shows that Penelope is not ready to believe he is coming home yet because she has been told that so many times that she doesn't know what to believe, but if Odysseus did come home she would still love him even though he has been gone for 20 years. Odysseus acts stoic because he doesn't want to reveal his true identity and his plans to overthrow the suitors. The sad encounter with the dog shows how poorly Ithaca has done since Odysseus has been gone. The irony of Antinous' argument is that he is the one who will die in the end.
ReplyDeleteHomer choose to do this to show yet again how Telemachus has matured and his thoughtfulness and kindness. Penelope's response to the prophecy show that she is hanging on by a thread to the idea that Odysseus will return, but she still has hope. Odysseus choose to act stoically when taunted because he know that becoming angry will only cause more problems. This is a great example of his wisdom. The encounter with the dog shows that the suitors truly deserve what is coming to them. Antinous's argument is extremely ironic because he is claiming that Odysseus will not get out unscarred when infact he, along with the other suitors, will not even get out.
ReplyDelete