In Chapter 19, Holden goes to the Wicker Bar (which is actually a real place in the Seton Hotel) to meet with his student adviser from the Whooton School, Carl Luce. The Wicker Bar is a place in New York where he used to go to a lot. He apparently hated it but as we have seen so far in the book, Holden goes to a lot of places he hates, like how he has said many times he hates the movies but he went anyway waiting to go meet with Luce. This is one of the first chapters in a while that Holden isn't really depressed. Recently in the book, Holden's moods have been drastically changing four or five times per chapter but now he is actually acting pretty normally, like the beginning of the book. This kind of makes me wonder if he is past of his abyss now because he seems to be much more put together than he was before. He is still constantly contradicting himself though, one second he says Luce isa phony, then he says Luce is 'real friendly', then he says he's 'strictly a pain in the ass.'. This chapter also gives some
exposition. Before, we didn't really know when Holden's mental problems started or whether the death of Allie triggered it. Now we know he has been acting that way at least since he attended the Whooton School because Luce had suggested he go to a
physcoanalyst.
I couldn't get a video on for some reason so I choose this picture so you all could see what the Wicker Bar would look like. I'm not sure if this is actually it but it's from another blog where a guy is writing from the perspective of Holden.
This second picture is what a bar would look like in the 1940's. There are many other pictures of 1930-50's bars if you click
here.
I agree with you Presley, just about every place that Holden has mentioned hating he ends up going to. I noticed that to that Holden was a lot more mentally stable than we've seen in other chapters. I'm not sure why this is but I do not think that means he is past his abyss because nothing really big has come up. I'm not sure that Luce suggested that Holden go to a psychoanalyst because he thought Holden was insane, I think that he tells him to go to one because he thinks it might help him become a better person overall.
ReplyDeleteI actually disagree with you i think that he is much much worse in this chapter than before. Although he mood may not change that much he still is acting super crazy when he's drunk and being intrusive into Carl's sex life and acting much more intrusive and wild. you can tell this is a lot worse than with sally because Luce leaves after one drink and is upset with Holden almost imediatly. This is in my oppinion the worst we've seen Hoilden.
ReplyDeleteI don't think he is past his abyss yet because of what happens in chapter 20. It does seem that Holden is getting better as he seems to be emotionally level at the beginning of the chapter. What sets this off is the immense amount of hatred that Holden is displaying because it seems overkill for even Holden because he said he hated about everyone in the Wicker Bar. The biggest reason why I don' think that this is his abyss is that in chapter 20 he is flat out drunk and mimics being shot with a bullet like he did after Maurice left and calls Sally when he is drunk. He is just a wreck in that chapter and really doesn't seem to recover much until chapter 21 when he sees Phoebe.
ReplyDeleteI think I'm going to disagree AND agree with you Presley. In this chapter I agree that Holden doesn't say that he is depressed as much. However, he does say he is "Lonesome as hell." to Luce, which sort of says he is sad. I disagree by saying that he is past his abyss. I agree with John David by saying that nothing really big has come up. I feel like in the book Holden does go to places he hates, and he also hangs out with people he doesn't especially like very much. But I think that just shows how lonely Holden really is. He is willing to hang out with people he likes, and go places he doesn't like in order to try and make a connection with other people. I think if he would just call someone he actually likes (JANE) then he could actually make a connection with someone.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Annie. He doesn't seem to be depressed like he was in the other chapters, but there are instances that he shows how lonely he is. Also, it does seem that he is past the abyss, but as John David said, nothing has come to show us that he has come out of it. I think that Holden is just really lonely and he doesnt really know what to do anymore. He's trying to tell people his story, but he isnt calling the right people. I think he needs to talk to someone closer to him, like his sister or Jane. I think that those are the only two people who have a chance at helping him.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you too Annie and Noopur about how Holden does seem better but he does have some times when he shows his vulnerability toward loneliness and his depression. In addition, I agree with you John David how there hasn't really been a clear rebirth and emergence out of the abyss. I think Holden is showing his loneliness because he is spending time with people he would not normally spend time with like when he goes to the bar with Carl Luce. Next, I strongly believe that he should take a risk and call Jane, for what Annie is anxiously waiting.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with you Annie that Holden does seem a little better but not completely because he has moments when we can see through him and see that how lonely and depressed he is. I also agree that we have not yet reached his abyss because there has not been a significantly bad event that has occurred. We can truly see how lonely he is because he is desperate for company of just anyone even people he doesn't like. He is craving company! I also agree that he needs to just suck it up and call Jane!
ReplyDeleteHolden does seem to go to a lot of places that he hates. Maybe his need for someone to talk to is overriding his despise of awkward situations. But yes, it does seem like he is cheering up (maybe to make it seem sadder when he enters his abyss, but I doubt it). And that's smart to notice the fact that he has been sad at least since Whooton. And furthermore, he should really call Jane. It would be good for him. He would get some kind of closure on the situation.
ReplyDeleteI agree with all of you guys except with Presley's statement about this being the end of the abyss. I think maybe there might be more events that will lead him to the point of going to a phycoanalist. We may think he is ready but there might be a time when he feels so bad that he thinks he, himself, has to go to a phsycoanalist. I would also like to point out that you can tell Holden is being hypocritical about Carl being boring. He keeps talking about Carl being a boring weird guy but he turns out to be the center of Holden's attention. Ironically, during the conversation, Carl Luce had been reminding Holden to talk of something worthwhile and to grow up instead of Holden having those feelings. I think one of the big reasons to this is that Holden is depressed and could care less about who he talks to, but I thought that was interesting.
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ReplyDeleteI think that this is the beginning of a downward spiral for Holden. When Carl tries to get Holden to see the light, (ironically Carl's last name is Luce, meaning light in Latin), about his mental state. Holden is interested in some ways in Eastern Philosophy which speaks about letting go of material possessions, which Holden in some ways has already done with his typewriter. But at the same time Holden is in denial and doesn't want to accept this, so he continues to drink his troubles away with no avail. Carl represents someone trying to help him, but he ignores help.
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