Chapter twenty is all about how Holden leaves the bar and drunkenly stumbles home. And in this chapter I can say best something that I've noticed throughout the book. Holden's actions and words have a mind of their own. He consistently makes excuses for doing the things he does, for whatever reason. He is constantly criticizing everything and everyone around him, but never says anything out loud. This leads me to believe he would look like a very quiet boy, but his mind was that of a cynic, like Groucho Marx. Groucho, hence the name, always notices the flaws and errors of people in life, and makes fun of them in a witty way. An example of Holden's mind and actions being separate in ch. 2o could be when he says that "sort of" gave old Valencia the old eye, but she "pretended" not to see him. This is how he would have liked it to happen. In reality though, based on Holden's extravagant story telling, I think we can say that he never gave her the eye. It was probably more like one of those situations where he pretends he's been shot, except he's pretended to give Valencia the eye, and for whatever reason, she chooses to ignore him. I think I found a nice example of how Holden is acting, at least in his head.
The only difference between this video and Holden's imagination is that its happening out loud. Because Holden's mind and actions are separate, people may perceive him as boring and quiet just as he perceives others as phony and fake. And furthermore, since Holden is a quiet person on the outside, he doesn't talk to and get to know many people very well. I think this is the reason he thinks so many people are phony, because most people are boring, annoying, or phony until you get to know them well.
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ReplyDeleteI actually don't agree that Holden seems boring and quiet to most people. From what we've heard him say to people he knows he's not very shy i would say. Like with Luce he is extremely intrusive and asks him about his sex life and stuff. Also, with Stradlater, he does annoying stuff like tackle him when they're in the bathroom. From what people have said of him I think he seems immature to people, as both Luce and Stradlater said. Also, i disagree because I do think that he probably did give Valencia "the eye" and she ignored him, i don't think that he lied about that.
ReplyDeleteI am going to have to agree with Presley. Holden doesn't seem like the kind of guy that is quiet and shy. I think he actually makes quite an effort to not be quite. Like Presley, I think that he DID give Valencia "the eye" but SHE ignored him. I think if I ever saw Holden on the street I wouldn't think he was some quite, shy boy. I'd probably think he was pretty outgoing (and maybe a little crazy) And I'd probably try and be friends with him.
ReplyDeleteI also am going to agree with Presley. He is sensitive and compassionate, but he is outgoing and not afraid to talk to people. He is not afraid to talk to the bartender to tell him to give his message to Valencia to join him for a drink. If I saw him out on the street I agree with Annie in that I think he would seem pretty crazy and unstable, but I might refer to him to a psychologist rather than try and become friends with him. I think a better example of Holden's mind and actions being separate is when he says he hates the Wicker Bar, but keeps going there. It's seems like an idiosyncrasy to me.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Presley. Holden can be very outgoing at times, and he is usually not afraid to speak his mind. He may seem a little crazy, weird, or quiet to people who dont know him well, but I think that the people who know him wouldn't think of him as shy. I also agree with Presley's statement about Luce. He does get very intrusive with his sex life, which a shy person would'nt be able to do.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Coleman when he says that Holden isn't always the type that completely speaks his mind. He has a lot of very strong opinions about a lot of different things, and he doesn't share them all. However, I agree with Presley when she says that Holden isn't really shy. I don't see him as being shy. In fact, his bold actions would suggest quite the opposite. I think that the reason he doesn't state his opinions more out loud and the reason that his thoughts don't always translate into dialogue is because very rarely does Holden find someone that he actually wants to talk to about his feelings. For a while, we saw him talk to Sally and express his feelings to her. It wasn't even particularly because he likes her, he just wants to talk to someone, and she was the first person he could find that would listen. Holden is a busy thinker, so sometimes it might feel like he only thinks and rarely actually speaks his mind, but I think he would speak more if he had someone to talk to that would actually understand.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with Presley in that I think Holden would be outspoken and remotely outgoing. To those who don't know him well, they might think he is one of those skinny and socially awkward teenagers but he is so much more. In reality, he is a very complex outgoing teen that is not afraid to speak his mind.
ReplyDeleteI conquer with you Coleman. I think that you revealed and explained Holden's true personality well, and I think that Holden does not speak his minds. Also, I think that Holden thinks that everybody is phony because he doesn't give people a chance to express themselves and show who they really are. I think this happens because Holden always just judges people and makes assumptions, so he never talks to them.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you Coleman. He probably is a quiet person and thats what it seems like in this book. I also agree with you Thomas when you said that Holden doesn't give people the chance to show who they really are and so he just goes ahead and makes an assumption that the person is phony. He also makes stereotypes on certain groups of people such as cab drivers or show people.
ReplyDeleteI have mixed opinions about Holden. In my opinion he is not that shy on the inside because he expresses his thoughts very well without hiding anything. Then again I agree with Coleman because he does not explain 70% of the true feelings he has. In conclusion, Holden is really not shy, but from the strangers perspective he is shy. I also agree with Coleman on how he assumes people are phony. In general Holden's true personality is more complex, this is why I like the book so much.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you also Coleman. Holden always seems to point out the flaws that people have, and he is probably a quiet kid. I bet thats why some people would get annoyed with him, and why he is not very sociable, I mean, I would get annoyed if someone kept pointing out my flaws, and I wouldn't want to hang out with a guy who does that. I also agree that the video is what is like what is going on in his head. I think that Holden is confused what to think right now because he is on the cusp of becoming a man. Also, when he gets drunk I think this is what is going on in his weird mind.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you J.B. that Holden does a lot of times think of the glass half empty rather than half full, in the way that he does pick out all the little flaws of a person. And yes, that would be annoying to hang out with a kid who did that but I do wonder if Holden expresses all the flaws he picks out at people or if he just keeps his hatred to himself because in some situations he is showing his expression of hatred by calling people out for being phonies but other times i think he is just talking to himself about the little flaws of a person. and I also agree he is around the middle of crossing the threshold of boy into manhood which is a big part of the reason of all his confusion.
ReplyDeleteI disagree and i would say that he is seen as too exciting and that he is too much for people. Also i think that the reason he hates people is that he wants an exuse for being lonely and he is a pestimes as J.B. said. so both of these things make him a very anyoing person to be around.
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